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Mon, 09/21/2009 - 11:06 — Haruo

I'm rather amazed by the paucity of citations (one, from 1999) for this Welsh hymn sung to a Robert Lowry tune (assuming that the one citation is of the hymn I'm thinking of; it credits an author unknown to me, Richard Bewes, where the one I'm thinking of [see Cyber Hymnal] is ascribed to William Rees and/or William Williams) in the database. Can anybody check the citation (Sing Glory) and see what this Bewes fellow is responsible for and whether the tune is actually the Lowry tune? (The original question I was trying to determine was, for what text did Lowry compose that tune, which is sometimes given the tune name CYMRAEG, though that is unattested here?)

Any help will be appreciated.

Leland aka Haruo


Comments

Tue, 09/22/2009 - 08:35 — hplantin

Leland,

I don't have any further information on your request -- just a comment. Keep in mind that none of the DNAH hymnals had tune information. So we only have tune information for 40 or so of the 5000 hymnals.

---------------
Harry Plantinga
CCEL Director

Tue, 09/22/2009 - 23:06 — Haruo

Thanks, Harry, I know the DNAH database won't be of much help on a query like this (though I'm still surprised at the lack of first-line instances), but I figure there's a chance that somebody here may actually know the answer. The description of this forum says "Ask and answer questions about hymns, hymnals, and using the Hymnary" and I thought (and think) questions such as this fall within this description.

Thu, 09/24/2009 - 08:37 — hplantin

That's fine -- I just wanted to insert a little note there about why you may not find much on tune searches.

---------------
Harry Plantinga
CCEL Director

Thu, 09/24/2009 - 23:56 — cfenner

The Text
The original Welsh is by Gwilym Hiraethog (aka William Rees), and was published in two stanzas in Caniadau Hiraethog (1855), p. 251. These two stanzas were translated by William Edwards in The Baptist Book of Praise (1901), hymn no. 508. Sometimes the Welsh version appears with an extra stanza beginning, "O ddyfnderoedd! O ddoethineb!" This stanza is actually a transplant from a hymn by William Williams, which begins "Nid oes angel, nid oes seraph." It appeared in his collection Haleluia (c. 1790), hymn no. 186. As for the additional one or two English stanzas that sometimes appear with this hymn, that is more of a mystery that requires more research.

The Tune
The popular tune credited to Robert Lowry has not yet been properly identified to my knowledge. Since the first English translation of the Welsh was published after Lowry's death, Lowry would have used a different text. Some scores of this song offer a tune date of 1876, which would suggest his collection Gospel Music as a possible source, but I do not have access to this volume and have not been able to verify this.

If anyone has more information on the tune source, please enlighten us. This hymn is often poorly documented, and nailing down this information would be of great benefit to the hymnological community.

Chris Fenner

Mon, 09/28/2009 - 12:39 — Haruo

The tune reminds me of REDEEMED (which definitely is by Lowry, and a year or two later I think than 1876), but it's not the same tune.

Also for those who may be a bit slow in the Welsh, "CYMRAEG" is Welsh for WELSH (the language, not the people), and is pronounced I think more like "Come, Ryke" than the spelling would suggest to a monoglot Anglophone reader.

Leland_aka_Haruo

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 12:49 — James Lowery

I have a copy of "GOSPEL HYMNS Nos. 1 to 6 Complete (without duplicates) For Use in Gospel Meetings and Other Religious Services." The hymn numbered 141 (pg 144) uses Robert Lowry's tune which is NOT given a name. It is used with the hymn "Jesus Only" by Hattie M Conrey.
The tune is Copyright 1876 by Robert Lowry and is uses "by per."

If I can figure out how to do so, I'll send a .pdf file containing a scan of the hymn and title page of the book.

Jim Lowery
Minister of Music;
Bethlehem Baptist Church; 9600 Midlothian Tpk; Richmond VA 23235

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 14:42 — James Lowery

There are thirteen instances of this TEXT included on the "Hymnary" site. Five have page scans and all those use the Lowry TUNE. The remaining eight references list the TUNE information as "Not Available."
Copyright holders include Robert Lowry; Mary Runyon Lowry; and Bigelow & Main (Interestingly, this is the earliest published version of the hymn/tune- 1883; the latest is 1920).

The Cyber Hymnal includes this TEXT (http://hymntime.com/tch/htm/j/e/s/jesusonl.htm), and lists the TUNE name as "Here is Love"
but leaves the TUNE unnamed on the "Here is Love" page (http://hymntime.com/tch/htm/h/e/r/herelove.htm).

Jim Lowery

Sat, 02/11/2012 - 22:20 — cfenner

You're THE MAN. This is the missing link. A million thanks. You overlooked an instance, which is in Gospel Music. Here in Hymnary, it is dated 1877, but on WorldCat it is consistently dated 1876.

That leaves two other questions:
1. Who is responsible for pairing "Here is love" with the Lowry tune?
2. There are two extra verses that sometimes appear with "Here is love" (mostly online, I think); they are definitely not original to this hymn, but I can't find any indication of their origin. The extra text is archaic and has the feel of 18th/19th century poetry. I tried searching Hymnary and Google Books for certain phrases to see if they would turn up in old hymnals, but that led nowhere.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 09:07 — cfenner

I should clarify question 2. There are two different appended texts in circulation. One is by Richard Bewes, which is "Through the years of human darkness," and appears as vs. 3-4 in Sing Glory (for example). The other is "Let me all thy love accepting," which appears on the internet and I'm not sure if it appears in any hymnals. This is the one with unknown origins. I think sometimes it is credited to William Williams. Perhaps someone with easy access to ECCO could search for this phrase and see what happens.

CF

Fri, 02/24/2012 - 05:15 — Haruo

Thanks so much, Jim Lowery and Chris Fenner! Getting close to solving the whole riddle.

Sat, 01/26/2013 - 08:02 — Janet Fife

The hymn appears with the verses 'Let me all Thy love accepting' and 'In Thy truth Thou dost direct me' in the Redemption Hymnal, published in UK in 1951. I only have the words copy but there is no attribution of the text to an author.

It's surprising how few hymnals feature it; nor does it appear in Julian's Dictionary of Hymnology (though the hymn would have been newish when the Dictionary was compiled).

Janet

Sat, 01/26/2013 - 21:31 — cfenner

Thank you for sharing this info, it is very helpful.

Right, it would have been new to Julian and not widely known. It has had a certain resurgence since about 1999, and is found in multiple hymnals in the UK, not so much in the US.

Sun, 01/27/2013 - 08:09 — Janet Fife

Paul Cain (re)introduced it when he was over here (UK) with the Kansas City Prophets in 1991, and I think it took off from there.

Richard Bewes has his own website (there's quite a lot about him online if you google him), and he may know more about the hymn's origins. Does anyone know what tune it was originally sung to - or was it a devotional poem rather than a hymn?

Interestingly, at our local United Service on Wednesday, we sang the hymn 'Show me how to stand for justice' to the tune 'Here is love'. It's the first time I've heard that tune used for another hymn.

Janet

Sun, 01/27/2013 - 10:02 — Haruo

Interesting new use of the tune. Somewhere in this thread the original first line Lowry composed the tune for is mentioned. Of course, it's an 8.7.8.7.D tune, so it could be used for practically any text that, say, HYFRYDOL or BLAENWERN or HYMN TO JOY (EU national anthem ;-) ) might be used for...

Mon, 01/28/2013 - 16:04 — cfenner

The Welsh hymn was not initially published with music (1855). I'm not sure what the most common tune is when it is sung in Welsh, but I have one copy of it printed with MORIAH by Alaw Gymreig.

The translation "Here is love" by Wm. Edwards was first published with CARIAD ("Love") by W.T. Samuel, Baptist Book of Praise (1901). In the Redemption Hymnal (1951), mentioned in an earlier post, the tune setting is BETHANY by H. Smart.

The Lowry tune was first published with "What tho' clouds are hov'ring o'er me," ("Jesus only") by Hattie M. Conrey, Gospel Music (1876).

Wed, 01/30/2013 - 07:01 — Janet Fife

Ah, that's why the tune seemed familiar when I first heard 'Here is Love'!. I haven't heard 'Jesus Only' since I was a small child in an Illinois Baptist church. Thanks for solving the mystery.

Janet

Sat, 02/20/2016 - 07:07 — Brian Carlick

The source for the tune for this hymn has been given to me by my priest is the one on this website, attributed to Robert Lowry, 1876. I am sorry to comment on this but the PDF provided is not very well notated. The barlines (USA "Measure Lines?) seem not to be in the right place and the note values in the second complete bars do not add up! Although I have coped with this version in the past I am rewriting it and also re-harmonising to some extent for my own use. We will not be singing it in Welsh in a village near Oxford!

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